Live on Bloomberg TV

00:00Hello I'm Stephen Engle. Welcome to this Bloomberg Television special. A conversation with Carrie Lam whose tumultuous single term as Hong Kong leader has come to an end. Her five years as Hong Kong chief executive were marred by mass street protests largely targeting her and a perception that Beijing was tightening its grip over this international city of seven and a half million. What followed was a clampdown on dissent. The imposition of a Chinese national security law did calm the violence but it also led to the arrest of hundreds of pro-democracy supporters. And later a total revamp of the electoral process to ensure only China patriots could serve as lawmakers. But her undoing may have been her pandemic response which saw the health care system here overrun and more than 9000 people mostly the elderly and unvaccinated dead. Not to mention her very controversial quarantine policies that essentially left this city isolated as the rest of the world moved on from Covid. Here is our candid conversation with Kerry Lamb. Madam chief executive thank you so much for your time and having us here in your offices here in Hong Kong. It's a pleasure. Thank you so much. So I was intrigued by a number of interviews that you've given over the last few days. One thing that you did did catch my attention was how you felt that the Hong Kong is suffering as an international hub because of the quarantine issues. Why come out with that kind of sentiment now when there's really no chance for you to make a difference on that front despite some skepticism and cynicism about Hong Kong's future. I remain very optimistic and confident of Hong Kong's future. And one of the reasons for my confidence and optimism is Hong Kong's unique strings. On the one country two systems. So I do want to conclude my term by reinstating the importance of Hong Kong's international connectivity and her status as an international city. But is the damage already done. Well yes and no because if you look at the past two years that is before the fifth wave hit us for a period. Hong Kong was ranked the world's number one in terms of normalcy. That is when other countries and places were imposing the stay home permits and lockdowns and closed the airport. And so. We were by and large operating normally. But since the fifth wave hit us and it hit us very hot but really in terms of the number of deaths. So 300 days. So we have to be extremely cautious. And at the same time because of the transmissibility all me crawling and the mildness of this virus then other places are opening up. So by comparison I'm the person who believes in relativity. So everything is relative. When people are opening up and Hong Kong is still imposing that seven day designated hotel quarantine that to a certain extent weakens our position as an international city. What I'm saying is Hong Kong's connectivity is very important for almost every sector. And I do hope that the next government which has said that one of the top priorities is to resume some quarantine free travel into the mainland. And that issue perhaps we need to be considered together with opening up to the rest of the well. Is it feasible to open up internationally more first before the border with mainland. Let's face it it's not just a question of how the government sees the relative importance of opening up to the outside well and resuming quarantine travel in the mainland. It is our people's aspirations. The seven point four million people especially the business sector which has a huge business operation in the mainland and a lot of people who will have family members in the mainland and thousands of flood studios supposedly Shia cross border every day to go to school. So the government has to take into account all those needs and aspirations and decide what to do. The best scenario is of course concurrent. We can adjust a bit. The overseas travel restrictions that is same time without compromising or undermining the opportunity of resuming travel into the mainland. In your discussions with mainland officials and I know there was progress leading up before the fifth was late last year we were getting closer. Yes it was terrible. I was tantalizingly close. Yes. Obviously Hong Kong has been pushing mainland authorities for their guidance and their approval. How much of a priority was it to mainland officials to open up the border to us. Yes. OK well they certainly appreciate the importance of opening up the border to Hong Kong because of the very close relationship between Hong Kong and mainland in all respects. It's not just governments and government business to business it's people to people. And the whole idea of a greater bay area is to facilitate a free flow of people capital goods and so on. So it's absolutely important. But what I'm telling you and the public is if that remained the prerequisite that zero local infections for a period of time in the present circumstances with this prevailing all macron it would be very difficult. I know you've said in previous interviews that you don't have any regrets as you leave the chief executive position. But are there things on the Covid front you would have done differently. Hindsight is golden. Obviously it's 2020. But in hindsight is there something you wish you had done better. Vaccination the vaccination. Vaccination you wish. We started a vaccination program February 2021. We are one of the places in a world that we have not for a single day. Is Hong Kong short of vaccines. We have two choices of vaccines for people to choose and we have community vaccination centres all over Hong Kong. With hindsight perhaps we should be even more aggressive and forceful short of mandating. Why not. Especially why not. We never do it by mandating people to take a jab because that would be too interfering with the individual's freedom. But now we have a lot of outreaching teams to the elderly homes. We persuaded the medical doctors to be more forthcoming in explaining to the elderly residents in their homes that it is OK for them to take the jab in order to overcome their vaccine hesitancy. We have said that unless this elderly residents legal guardian sat no otherwise by default we will based on medical advice to vaccinate the elderly. This are tougher measures that were taken in the fifth wave but not at the beginning of the vaccination program. So looking back if you asked me had we adopted the more aggressive measures at the very beginning and protect the elderly especially in the elderly homes then perhaps we would see a lower number of deaths. This is critical. We probably have not seen the peak of this wave. Can you take me back to February 22nd. I believe is when you came out and announced to the people of Hong Kong that they would likely have to face three Covid tests over the next month and that those who test positive would be put into isolation centers. There were cases of parents being separated from the children and then all of a sudden you disappeared from public view for at least a couple of weeks. We came back and there was no lockdown. There was no mass testing. Oh was it. What happened during that period where the city was faced with a potential lockdown mass testing and 70000 people that month 70000 people the following month left people freaked out. No but I do I know you don't have regrets about policy but clearly it could have been communicated better. We are facing an unprecedented public health crisis. I don't think any leader in any government have a firm and clear web plan that is cast in stone. Public governance is about taking decisions and sometimes tough decisions. In light of the changing circumstances and changing circumstances it's not an exact science as I have said in making all this difficult decisions in the last two and half years over Covid-19. I always have to strike the balance amongst the three key factors. One is public health because it's life and death. And I have a lot of experts telling me advice and advice. It's not entirely the same. I'm sure you'll pick up. That's a problem isn't it. Yeah. And a second is of course the economic needs of Hong Kong and certainly is a people's tolerance. And if you look around why many of the almost all of the other governments have opened up I think they now realise that they can no longer tolerate the sort of isolation because of economic development needs and that people often think Hong Kong people generally are much better if you ask me. They're very disciplined even up to this day when Omicron is very mild. They still wear their mass whenever they go out or even and on in other places but still making a decision on that on that sort of complicated interaction of several factors. It's not an easy one. And I I do not shy away from making decisions and I do not shy away from telling the people. And so difficult decisions have to be made to especially in light of Hong Kong's unique circumstances. Do you still think there's going to be growth. You'll have to look at the robustness in Hong Kong's various sectors to appreciate that this city will rebound and will rebound very quickly. How is the economy going to recover. You had two straight years of of contraction followed by last year's rebound but this year on this path it does not look like it's gone got this year. We have moderated the full cost growth to 1 to 2 percent originally. It's much much higher. You still think it's going to be growth. I think will get that the borders are closed. The you know you just look at the retail the trade and the business but the financial side is affected by the global geopolitical situation. So the IPO has come down. But at the same time other things are doing well. For example our green fine is is doing extremely well. Trainee trainee 1 we have in Hong Kong issued a fifty six point six billion U.S. dollar sustainable and green debt which is four times more than the preceding year 2020. So you'll have to look at the robustness in Hong Kong's various sectors to appreciate that this city will rebound and will rebound very quickly. I've been in Hong Kong a long time. My career some 30 years in and out of Hong Kong. And there's never ever been a period that I've noticed that the authorities here even think about abandoning the dollar peg. But we're hearing that authorities and officials are at least discussing some of the contingency factors with the global situation the geopolitical situation and what even Paul Chan your financial secretary made mention of the Ukraine Russia conflict raises concerns and that the authorities have to be prepared for anything the EU. HK I mean you talked about geopolitics and capital flows are going to be the biggest challenges to Hong Kong going forward. Is there any escalation of talk of contingency plans on the dollar peg if these concerns geopolitical concerns and U.S. so-called weaponization of the dollar escalate. No. My personal view is there is no basis and no need to change the delaying exchange rate system itself. Hong Kong. Well and we'll continue to serve Hong Kong. Well the reason why we have to make such a robust response is there's always a speculations and rumors who try to exploit and the uncertainty in order to sort of make profit. All under my Hong Kong says stability. But I think this one thing is very very important because when all over the world things are very fluid and even a bit chaotic. The certainty of Hong Kong's monetary system is important not only to Hong Kong but to our country. Do you see signs that the United States is weaponized in the dollar or that there could be threats if there are further sanctions against Hong Kong threats to Hong Kong's access to the swift system like we've seen in Russia and the like. Well some overseas governments are totally unpredictable so I cannot comment on that. And sometimes they are totally irrational. Up to this moment I don't understand why being a Hong Kong as a all government official defending national security of the People's Republic of China should be sanctioned by the US government. I just don't understand except trying to bully and intimidate us for defending our own country. Are you still paid in cash or have you had your banking situation. I'm telling you the one thing is I've not been spending money in the last two years without a credit card. I can survive. I can survive. How about after you step down you will obviously be paid a pension. Yes. Will that be paid in cash. Probably. I'm only a very modest pension. Yes it's a very modest pension because I left the government too early. Yes. Because as a politically appointed official 15 years ago I I I was no longer a paid pension based on a civil servants. Length of service. But never mind. As I have been saying I have no property in Hong Kong. Very low to assets. But I enjoy serving the people Hong Kong. And I I'm I'm sure I will enjoy my retirement. Would you apply or find a way to apply to the United States to get off the sanctions list. Definitely. No no no. Definitely. No. Why. Why should I. I'm not keen to go to the United States. I have no assets in the United States. If my family members have been hurt they have already been hurt and they stand by me. So why should we go to apply for. Any relaxation of the sanctions. I hope one day the U.S. authorities will realize that they have done something wrong. That they should rectify their own mistake. Given that your term coincided with probably the most turmoil Hong Kong has ever seen these last three of the five years I want to give you the final word. Is there anything you would like to apologize for to the Hong Kong people. I want to talk about the political situation in Hong Kong obviously it's been through political upheaval. What is the path for societal and political reconciliation. Do you see one desperate tung who is the founder of Hong Kong's largest pro establishment party recently called for dialogue to resume with the Pan Democrats. And I'm sure you would answer that. Well if they are patriots and they abide by the new electoral laws that they're welcome into the fold. But is there more that needs to be done to have a more inclusive political dialogue in Hong Kong. What needs to be done to heal that rift. Well he needs two to tango. What we are asking for is recognition and adherence to one country two systems. And as long as there's prerequisites is accepted there is of course room for dialogue for cooperation. I practiced that Stephen for almost two years after taking office. I engaged across the political spectrum. I have personally this played how to communicate and work together. I even adopted some of their policy proposals to an extent. I was attacked and criticized by the establishment CAC. But. It turned out that all this is not that they are against one country. They colluded with external forces to undermine the Hong Kong as our government and even endanger national security. But if they were willing to come back to the right track which Hong Kong is now on I I'm very gratified that after these five years Hong Kong is now on the right track of one country two systems. Then there's always room. I'm sure every government official in the next government and the next next government want a more inclusive society. One Hong Kong to be politically diverse but don't deviate from the one country concept. When are we going to get proof of this foreign interference though. I've heard this a lot and I don't represent any foreign government. I'm just curious because I've heard government officials and yourself talk about well in Mandarin that's why was surely foreign powers. And that's the boogey man. Yes. Well we're an international city. We're used to being international. So you said now I think was about a year ago now is not the time to talk about the evidence or the proof that will come out in the court. But under the national security law some of these court proceedings can be closed without juries or even on the mainland. So are we ever going to get this evidence of why surely on the streets of Hong Kong that have impacted the city so much. No. Since the enactment of the national security law I was put on this very honored position to be the chairman of the National Security Committee. And I do learn a lot from my position as the chairman National Security Committee. And there are things that we could not prematurely disclose when we are still investigating or doing other things. But eventually one has to appreciate. I don't think this has been understood and appreciated enough. The enactment of a national security law especially on the implementation of this piece of national legislation by itself is already a vote of confidence in one country two systems because the entire legal provisions and power of the Hong Kong authorities to implement investigations are done by the Hong Kong police force prosecutions initiated by the Hong Kong as they are government lawyers in the department justice. And ultimately the cases are tried in the Hong Kong courts and the Hong Kong costs under the basic law and joint judicial independence including the participation of the overseas distinguished judges. My priority will be to heal the divide and to ease the frustrations and to unite our society. Do you wish you had gone and sat down though. You did come in as chief executive on a conciliatory tone. Hong Kong was in the throes of the Umbrella Movement fast and you did want to make overtures. Do you wish and this is a question I've always wished you could have sat down with the kids or whomever was protesting and explained to them. Article 18 Annex 3 in the Basic Law which I've read countless times and it clearly states if national security is threatened if the emergency situation the National People's Congress Standing Committee could do exactly what they did and that is implement the national security law. But even in the months before that in January of 20 20 20 20. You said there is absolutely no truth to the rumors that Beijing is tightening its fist. I still I still believe and I still would say that it's not tightening the grip as presented by some Western media. It is exercising legitimate overall jurisdiction over Hong Kong and the one country two systems. Hong Kong is part of the People's Republic of China enjoying a high degree of autonomy. But when you talk about cuts and understanding of the basic law this is one area that offer you reunification. We have not done well and that's why we have done a lot recently. And I hope that the next government will continue to do because understanding one country two systems is not an easy thing. It is not a one lecture or instant noodle type of education. And I'm very happy after retirement to help the understanding by going into schools and talking to young people especially with my personal experience as a chief executive. Is it an impossible task to manage two bosses if you will Beijing and the people of Hong Kong. Is it the most difficult job in politics. Your job. Chief executive of Hi. I would say it is unprecedented and unique. I can find many situations where then head of government have to ask two bosses. But if the aspirations and the. Those of these two bosses could be aligned. One is right track one country two systems Saigon. We all love to have stability prosperity and said now we could integrate Hong Kong should integrate incident national development. Then the job of the chief executive suddenly becomes very easy given that your term coincided with probably the most turmoil. Hong Kong has ever seen these last three of the five years. I want to give you the final word. Is there anything you would like to apologize for to the Hong Kong people. No. I want to apologize to my husband. I my sons. For all the sacrifices to have made to support my mission to serve the people Hong Kong and to build Hong Kong as a part of the People's Republic of China. Madam Lam, thank you so much for your Bloomberg Television.

No schedule data available.

A Conversation With Carrie Lam

Bloomberg TV's Stephen Engle sits down with Carrie Lam in one of the last interviews of her tumultuous term as Hong Kong Chief Executive. Her five years in office were marred by mass street protests, the imposition of a national security law that tightened Beijing’s grip, and a pandemic response that undermined the city’s international status. Lam tells Engle she has nothing to apologize for to the Hong Kong people. (Source: Bloomberg)

Bloomberg Technology
The only daily news program focused exclusively on technology, innovation and the future of business from San Francisco. Hosted by Emily Chang.
More episodes and clips