Live on Bloomberg TV

00:00KISSINGER BEING BROKEN DOWN AND THERE IS A REVISIONIST THEME AND I LOVE THAT CONCEPT. WHEN YOU ARE WRITING KISSINGER, WAS THERE A FEELING THAT YOU ARE SETTING THE RECORD STRAIGHT? NIALL: THAT IS WHAT I ALWAYS SET OUT TO DO. THIS WAS A BOOK INSPIRED BY A SUBJECT, HENRY KISSINGER HIMSELF. HE CLEARLY FELT THE NEED FOR A SCHOLARLY BIOGRAPHY. I AGONIZED ON WHETHER TO TAKE ON SUCH A DIFFICULT TASK. ONE REASON I THOUGHT I SHOULD IS THAT THERE WAS THIS MYTHOLOGY THAT HAD SPRUNG UP INSPIRED BY THE LIKES OF SEYMOUR HERSH THAT HE WAS THE DR. EVIL IS NOT DARTH VADER OF THE LATE 20TH CENTURY. IT SEEMED IMPLAUSIBLE THE WAY THAT HE WAS BEING REPRESENTED. EVEN HIS MILES CRITICS REPRESENT HIM AS A MACHIAVELLIAN FIGURE. I THOUGHT THAT WAS A BIT DERISIVE. I EVEN CALL HIM IN THE BIOGRAPHY OF AN AMERICAN MACHIAVELLI. ONCE I READ AT HIS PRIVATE LETTERS AND DIARIES AND PUBLISHED AND UNPUBLISHED WORKS, I QUICKLY REALIZED THIS WAS ALL WRONG. AT LEAST IN THE FIRST HALF OF HIS LIFE, HE WAS MUCH BETTER DESCRIBED AS AN IDEALIST. THAT SOUNDS PRETTY COUNTERINTUITIVE TO MOST OF YOUR LISTENERS, WHO PROBABLY CANNOT IMAGINE KISSINGER AS AN IDEALIST. WHEN HE REALIZED THAT HE WAS BY TURNS OF REFUGEE, A SOLDIER, A NAZI HUNTER, A STUDENT OF PHILOSOPHY AND HISTORY, LONG BEFORE HE BECAME NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR, IT STARTS TO MAKE SENSE. TOM: YOU AND I HAVE TALKED ABOUT THIS BEFORE ABOUT HOW HE CAME TO AMERICA. WHAT WE ARE OBSERVING THAT THE SCALE OF REFUGEES AND ECONOMIC MIGRANTS IN EUROPE, HOW WOULD YOU PRESUME SHE WAS FORMED BY HOW HE CAME TO AMERICA , LITERALLY ESCAPING THE THREAT OF THE NAZIS IN THE LATE 1930'S? NIALL: TODAY, THE REFUGEES ARE POURING INTO GERMANY AND THEN THEY WERE POURING OUT OF GERMANY IN THE 1930'S. THE KISSINGER FAMILY WERE AMONGST THE LUCKY ONES TO GET THE UNITED STATES. THERE WERE QUOTAS ON THE NUMBERS THAT COULD COME HERE. HENRY KISSINGER ARRIVED HERE AS HEINZ KISSINGER IN THE LATE SUMMER AND EARLY FALL OF 1938. IN A REMARKABLY SHORT SPACE OF TIME, HE BECAME AN AMERICAN CITIZEN. SIX YEARS LATER, HE FOUND HIMSELF BACK IN GERMANY AS A G.I.. IN THE LETTERS HE WROTE HOME TO HIS PARENTS IN 1944 IN 1945 AND IN POSTWAR GERMANY ARE SOME BE MOST ASTONISHING DOCUMENTS. TOM: JUST READ THIS BOOK. READ THE WHOLE BOOK OBVIOUSLY. THE BASIC IDEA OF THE FIRST 80 PAGES, THEY LITERALLY READ LIKE A MOVIE OF THE NIALL: YOUNG HENRY KISSINGER. IT'S A VERY DRAMATIC STORY. YOU HAVE TO IMAGINE THAT HE NOT ONLY PARTICIPATES IN THE BATTLE OF THE BULGE, BUT A FEW MONTHS LATER, HE IS IN THE DELIBERATION OF A CONCENTRATION CAMP. TOM: WHAT WAS HIS REACTION TO THAT? NIALL: A VERY STUNNING ONE. HE WROTE A VERY SHORT ESSAY IN RESPONSE TO THE EXPERIENCE, WHICH TAKES THE FORM OF AN ADDRESS REALLY GOOD IT'S TO ONE OF THE INMATES, A 16-YEAR-OLD VICTIM OF THE NAZIS. IT'S ONE OF THE MOST STRIKING DOCUMENTS IN THE BOOK. I THINK IT IS THE FIRST CLEAR SIGN OF THE PASSIONATE IDEALISM THAT MOTIVATED THE YOUNG MAN IN WHAT BECAME A CRUSADE AGAINST UTILITARIANISM -- TOTALITARIANISM. TOM: WE ARE HERE WITH HIS OUTSTANDING KISSINGER 1923 TO 1968. THERE ARE SHARP REVIEWS PRO AND CON AND A LOT OF DEBATE. HAVE YOU BEGUN THE SECOND VOLUME YET? NIALL: I HAVE. I'VE DONE A LOT OF THE RESEARCH. TOM: IS HE IS EVIL AS DETRACTORS SAY? DO YOU CALL IT 1968 TO THE PRESENT, THE EVIL ONE? NIALL: I THINK I'M GOING TO CALL IT THE REALM OF POWER. I THINK THE KEY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN BEING AT THE WRIST AND A PROFESSOR AND BEING A NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR AND SECRETARY OF STATE IS THAT YOU ARE IN THE REALM OF POWER. FEW ACADEMICS DO THIS AND MOST ARE CONTENT TO SIT IN THEIR STUDIES PONTIFICATING ABOUT POLICY, BUT WHEN YOU EXIT ENTERED THE REALM OF POWER, YOU FIND THAT YOUR IDEALISM MUST BE COMPROMISED, NOT LEAST BECAUSE YOU ARE WORKING, AND KISSINGER'S CASE, FOR PRESIDENT NEXT HIM WHO HAD STRONG VIEWS ABOUT FOREIGN POLICY. IT SEEMS TO BE AN UNHEALTHY ONE IN THIS DISCUSSION. TOM: LET ME STOP QUICKLY. I LOVE THIS QUOTE WE FOUND. HE IS QUITE A SIGHT AS HE STRUTS BACK AND FORTH ACROSS THE LECTURE PLATFORM, ALTERNATELY PRAISING AND CASTIGATING KENNEDY AND TOSSING WORDS TO KISSINGER. THE EVILS BESET OUR FOREIGN POLICY. THAT WAS WRITTEN IN 1963. IT COULD'VE BEEN WRITTEN IN 1993 OF DR. KISSINGER. NIALL: THE DIFFERENCE THEN IS THAT HE WAS AN ACADEMIC. HE WAS BASICALLY IN THE KENNEDY ADMINISTRATION AND HAD A TERSE -- FIRST TASTE OF FOREIGN POLICY THEM. THAT IS WHY WHEN HE WAS STILL A PROFESSOR AT HARVARD, I STILL THINK THAT HE HAD TO FULLY APPRECIATE THE REALITIES OF POWER. THAT WOULD BE A BIG THEME OF THE SECOND NOVEL. TOM: WE ALL LIVE DIFFERENTLY -- THE VIETNAM WAR. THERE ARE TALKS ABOUT IT AND THE IMPORTANT THING IS THAT 1968 WAS NOT THE END OF VIETNAM WAR AND DID HE HAVE ANY ILLUSIONS THAT COULD HAVE ENDED VIETNAM EARLIER? DID HE KNOW AND 63 OR 64 THERE WAS A NEED TO MOVE ON FROM VIETNAM? NIALL: ABSOLUTELY. ONE OF THE MOST EXCITING THINGS IN THE FIRST VOLUME IS THE REALIZATION THAT KISSINGER KNEW AS EARLY AS 19 65 OF THE WAR CANNOT BE WON. THERE WOULD HAVE TO BE A DIPLOMATIC EXIT FOR THE UNITED STATES. HE WAS WORKING ACTIVELY FOR THAT ALREADY IN 1967, TRYING UNSUCCESSFULLY TO GET THE NORTH VIETNAMESE TO NEGOTIATE. THE NOTION THAT HE COULD JUST SORT OF SWITCH TO SWITCH AND END THE WAR IN 1969. RICHARD NIXON COULD'VE DONE THAT. I THINK THAT IS NOT HISTORICALLY PLAUSIBLE. ONE HAS TO ASK THE QUESTION -- COULD THAT SOMEHOW HAVE BEEN ENDED SOONER? THE NORTH VIETNAMESE WERE EXTREMELY TENACIOUS AND VERY DETERMINED TO ULTIMATELY CONQUER SOUTH VIETNAM. IT WAS NOT AS IF THEY WERE READY TO NEGOTIATE IN GOOD FAITH IN 1968. TOM: IT'S ON THE LIST OF FIVE BOOKS THAT EVERY KID MUST READ. YOU HAVE TO GO THROUGH. THE PASSION OF DR. KISSINGER, LOVE HIM OR HATE HIM, HE SPEAKS OF THAT TIME ON THE ROAD TO DESPAIR. HE DOES NOT SEE MICAH A GUY WHO EASILY GOES ON THE ROAD TO DESPAIR. HOW DID YOU WALK THAT ROAD WITH

No schedule data available.

Why Kissinger Wasn't the Darth Vader of Late 20th Century

More From Bloomberg Markets
All episodes and clips

PxPixel