WEBVTT X-TIMESTAMP-MAP=MPEGTS:900000,LOCAL:00:00:00.000 00:00:00.030 --> 00:00:05.790 The killing of Dante Wright during a traffic stop by a white officer has sparked several nights of protests in the 00:00:06.030 --> 00:00:13.050 Minneapolis region and it's rekindling demands to remove police officers from traffic enforcements. Traffic stops 00:00:13.080 --> 00:00:19.320 disproportionately affect black people. With this latest incident bearing resemblance to several other high profile 00:00:19.320 --> 00:00:26.435 killings of black people in recent years especially in this region. So what type of change are lawmakers calling for. 00:00:26.670 --> 00:00:34.560 Joining us now is Columbia law professor Sara Seo who explains how design criminalization and disarming police could lead to 00:00:34.560 --> 00:00:41.460 safer streets. Sara. Thanks so much for being here. You also have a book called Policing the Open Road How Cars Transformed 00:00:41.490 --> 00:00:49.080 American Freedom. So I really want to just get into this story with you. I mean this area where we saw this incident happened 00:00:49.080 --> 00:00:58.500 over the weekend has seen a number of police involved. Incidents happen. Why is it how is it that three armed officers were 00:00:58.650 --> 00:01:04.680 approaching a man for a traffic violation. I mean how how could this happen especially 00:01:04.680 --> 00:01:11.810 in the climate that we're in right now. That's because we've as American society has delegated traffic 00:01:11.810 --> 00:01:20.030 law enforcement to armed police officers. And so they're the ones who are pulling over cars for every traffic violation from 00:01:20.330 --> 00:01:29.030 the minor to an expired registration tag or broken tail light to criminal infractions like reckless driving. They're the ones 00:01:29.030 --> 00:01:38.540 that we've tasked with this enforcement of traffic laws. Professor I'm wondering if there's a way that we can look to 00:01:38.690 --> 00:01:46.970 other societies around the world and how they handle traffic stops and how they handle policing. Is this in your opinion done 00:01:47.150 --> 00:01:51.745 anywhere. Well should we model after any other areas of the world. 00:01:52.940 --> 00:02:01.340 Well for one thing police officers in the United States are more armed than others in other countries. And the second thing is in 00:02:01.340 --> 00:02:07.880 Europe. They use automated enforcement technologies much more than we do to catch speeding which is one of the major causes of 00:02:07.880 --> 00:02:17.480 accidents. And another way that cameras are used are for red lights intersections. And so Europe has relied more on automated 00:02:17.480 --> 00:02:21.235 enforcement technologies than we have or we can certainly use more. 00:02:22.550 --> 00:02:30.520 And Sarah I mean your book dives into the origins of policing the road and procedures that were meant to keep us safe. Have 00:02:30.530 --> 00:02:37.295 now ultimately led to some of these incidents that we're seeing now. How exactly has this happened over the years. 00:02:38.800 --> 00:02:48.040 Well it's it's a long history that goes back to the very early years of the automobile where students mass produced cars rolled 00:02:48.040 --> 00:02:55.720 off assembly lines. There was a problem of public streets and highways being overwhelmed with cars traffic and fatalities. And 00:02:55.720 --> 00:03:04.330 so local governments enforce traffic laws to promote public safety on the road. The problem was every driver violated one of 00:03:04.330 --> 00:03:11.980 these roads. We all speed for example. And so they turned to the police to enforce these laws. And then as soon as black 00:03:11.980 --> 00:03:17.230 Americans started driving and owning cars in significant numbers around the late 1930s 00:03:18.370 --> 00:03:28.360 the police started to use minor traffic violations to abuse them on the road. And so we see that the intersection to use a 00:03:28.360 --> 00:03:37.510 vehicle and we see the merger of the history of racialized policing the history of traffic enforcement and the history of 00:03:37.720 --> 00:03:47.140 modern policing that's developed in response to the dangers of automobile all coming together. Professor I'm wondering where 00:03:47.140 --> 00:03:54.580 messaging comes in on this because over the last year we have heard this call to defund the police. And I do think there is a 00:03:54.580 --> 00:04:02.740 lot of confusion about what the advocates of defunding the police mean by that statement. Do you think there is a more 00:04:02.740 --> 00:04:08.215 effective way to advocate for changes that would lead to safer streets. 00:04:09.800 --> 00:04:19.945 I agree. Defending the place is a vague phrase and might not be helpful in communicating exactly what the reform proposals are. 00:04:19.970 --> 00:04:29.840 In this particular context it's a recognition that traffic enforcement is an important government function. But the 00:04:29.840 --> 00:04:36.595 best way to promote public safety is not through having armed uniformed officers do that. 00:04:37.970 --> 00:04:48.505 We don't need armed officers weaponized officers to make minor citations for minor traffic infractions for example. 00:04:50.480 --> 00:04:56.450 Go ahead. Go ahead. And so the idea is we would still have enforcement of traffic 00:04:56.450 --> 00:05:05.810 laws but through other ways to promote public safety. So one example is automated enforcement like we talked about another 00:05:05.810 --> 00:05:13.400 way. And because automated enforcement can't cover all enforcement of traffic laws. We can use non armed non police 00:05:13.820 --> 00:05:21.365 officials to do that job. And Sara just finally. Are there any specific proposals that you've been hearing about police reform. 00:05:21.380 --> 00:05:29.570 I mean Tim mentioned defund the police but are there specific proposals in the short term that you think we might see to 00:05:29.570 --> 00:05:37.220 reduce these incidents from happening. Well the state of Florida is considering a bill right now that 00:05:37.220 --> 00:05:46.655 would create a new public safety department with traffic monitors and they would handle most civil moving violations. 00:05:48.140 --> 00:05:55.580 And there is still a role for the police in that bill. They would handle criminal violations and then they would also 00:05:55.580 --> 00:06:04.640 provide assistance when traffic monitors request it so they would handle the more dangerous situations. But for the vast 00:06:04.640 --> 00:06:14.425 majority of the routine civil violations we don't need armed uniformed officers to do that. Right. And I think with Dante. 00:06:14.420 --> 00:06:22.430 Right. He had expired license plates and then they found the air freshener which is legal in the state of Minnesota. So professor 00:06:22.430 --> 00:06:26.725 of law at the Columbia Law School Sara. Oh thanks so much for your time and your insight.